{"id":36117,"date":"2005-04-18T12:46:00","date_gmt":"2005-04-18T19:46:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/inside.ewu.edu\/willowspringsmagazine\/?p=36117"},"modified":"2025-02-18T11:54:30","modified_gmt":"2025-02-18T19:54:30","slug":"issue-57-a-conversation-with-robert-bly","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/inside.ewu.edu\/willowspringsmagazine\/issue-57-a-conversation-with-robert-bly\/","title":{"rendered":"Issue 57: A Conversation with Robert Bly"},"content":{"rendered":"
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\"Issue<\/figure>\n\n\n\n

Found in Willow Springs <\/em>57<\/a><\/strong><\/strong><\/p>\n\n<\/div><\/div>\n\n

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April 18, 2005<\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\n

Kaleen McCandless and Adam O’Connor Rodriguez<\/h2>\n\n\n\n

A Conversation with Robert Bly<\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/strong><\/h2>\n\n<\/div><\/div>\n\n
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\"Robert<\/figure>\n\n\n\n

Photo Credit: Poetry Foundation<\/em><\/em><\/em><\/em><\/em><\/em><\/em><\/em><\/em><\/em><\/em><\/em><\/em><\/em><\/em><\/em><\/em><\/em><\/em><\/em><\/em><\/em><\/em><\/em><\/em><\/em><\/em><\/p>\n\n<\/div><\/div>\n<\/div>\n\n\n

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According to psychologist Robert Moore, \u201cWhen the cultural and intellectual history of our time is written, Robert Bly will be recognized as the catalyst for a sweeping cultural revolution.\u201d As a groundbreaking poet, editor, translator, storyteller, and father of what he has called \u201cthe expressive men\u2019s movement,\u201d Bly remains one of the signi\ufb01cant American artists of the past half-century. In the following interview, Mr. Bly speaks about everything from poetics to politics, grief to greed, history to human nature. He ponders the death of culture and the redeeming nature of art, asking people to \u201cdevelop the insanity of art, which is a positive insanity.\u201d<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Robert Bly was born in western Minnesota in 1926 to parents of Norwegian descent. After time in the Navy, he studied at Harvard and the University of Iowa Writers\u2019 Workshop alongside classmates that included Donald Hall, Adrienne Rich, Kenneth Koch, John Ashbery, W.D. Snodgrass, and Donald Justice. In 1956, he received a Fulbright to translate Norwegian poetry and discovered a number of major poets\u2014among them Pablo Neruda, C\u00e9sar Vallejo, Gunnar Ekelof, Georg Trakl, and Harry Martinson. He soon started\u00a0The Fifties, a literary magazine for poetry translation in the United States, which eventually became\u00a0The Sixties\u00a0then\u00a0The Seventies\u00a0and introduced a new international aesthetic to American Poetry. He co-founded\u00a0American Writers Against the Vietnam War\u00a0in 1966, and when\u00a0<\/em>The Light Around the Body\u00a0(1968) won the National Book Award, Bly contributed the prize money to the resistance.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

While\u00a0<\/em>Iron John: A Book About Men\u00a0(1990) was an international bestseller, Bly has published many books of poetry, essays, and translations, most recently\u00a0<\/em>Eating the Honey of Words: Selected Poems\u00a0(1999),\u00a0<\/em>The Night Abraham Called to the Stars\u00a0(2002),\u00a0<\/em>The Winged Energy of Delight: Selected <\/em>Translations\u00a0(2004), and\u00a0<\/em>The Insanity of Empire: A Book of Poems Against the Iraq War\u00a0(2004). His most recent book of poems is\u00a0<\/em>My Sentence Was a Thousand Years of Joy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

We met Mr. Bly in his room at the Montvale Hotel in Spokane.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

ADAM O\u2019CONNOR RODRIGUEZ<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Why did you decide to publish The Insanity of Empire<\/em> yourself?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

ROBERT BLY<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Well, I have a publisher\u2014HarperCollins\u2014and one or two others that help, but I thought they\u2019d take a year or more. And I decided, no, too important, try to get it out. And besides, I can do anything I want with it, like give them away if I want to. And I\u2019ve printed a lot of books myself. It was just good expedience to get it out. A friend of mine designed the cover and the whole deal. It was done in two weeks.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

KALEEN MCCANDLESS<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

In the \ufb01rst part of that book, the poems are really direct. Did you notice a change in the voice?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

BLY<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

The \ufb01rst poems are the newest ones: \u201cCall and Answer,\u201d \u201cAdvice from the Geese,\u201d and \u201cLet Sympathy Pass.\u201d [Reads from \u201cLet Sympathy Pass.\u201d]<\/p>\n\n\n\n

People vote for what will harm them; everywhere<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Borks and thieves, Bushes\u00a0hung with union men.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Things are\u00a0not well with us.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Well that\u2019s true. It\u2019s quite direct here. I had intended to do an entire book of eight line stanzas. But I couldn\u2019t sustain it. So I went back to old notebooks and arranged them three at a time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

What was it we wanted the holy mountains,<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

The Black Hills, what did we want them for?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

The two Bushes come. They say clearly they will<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Make the rich richer, starve the homeless,<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Tear down the schools, short-change the children,<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

And they are elected. Millions go to vote,<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Vote to lose their houses, their pensions,<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Lower their wages, bring themselves to dust.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

All for the sake of whom? Oh you know\u2014<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

That Secret Being, the old rapacious soul.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

That \u201cSecret Being\u201d comes out of the Muslim world. The amazing idea they have contributed is the idea that inside you there\u2019s a nafs\u2014despite the \u201cs\u201d, it\u2019s a singular noun\u2014which is the greedy soul. I have a teacher in London, a Su\ufb01 from Iran, and he describes all that in The Psychology of Su\ufb01sm<\/em>. That whole little book is about the greedy soul. He says the greedy soul will eat up everything. It\u2019ll destroy a hundred universes for the sake of a little attention\u2014the \ufb02utter of an eyelash. It\u2019s willing to destroy everything. When people become Su\ufb01s, they are thought that their primary enemy is the nafs. Occasionally the teacher checks to see how much progress they\u2019ve made. I like the concept very much because it doesn\u2019t put evil outside of us, with Satan. It doesn\u2019t imply that a few little things are wrong with us, [in a gru\ufb00 voice] \u201cWhat do you mean a little thing? Are you insane?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n

MCCANDLESS<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Is that the same idea in Light Around the Body<\/em> of the \u201cinward self \u201d and the \u201coutward self?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n

BLY<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

That\u2019s said more in the European way. The inward and the outward. I didn\u2019t know about the nafs then.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

O\u2019CONNOR RODRIGUEZ<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Is our nafs voting right now?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

BLY<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Everyone\u2019s nafs together\u2014they tend to be Republican.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

O\u2019CONNOR RODRIGUEZ<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Automatically?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

BLY<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

The Republicans, aren\u2019t they the ones who stand and say, \u201cWell, I want what\u2019s mine. And I want what\u2019s yours.\u201d I\u2019ve heard that voice before. In 19th century, the farmers of Kansas were \ufb01ghters against lobbyists, the big grain companies, etc. Now Kansans vote Republican, even if that means they will lose their houses or businesses. The Republican Party does not represent the people, but the nafs. Forget about Franklin D. Roosevelt. Forget about Social Security. The greedy soul hates Social Security. \u201cGod, you\u2019re doing something for someone else? Are you crazy?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n

One of the things that drove Whitman crazy was to see the greedy soul at work after the Civil War. So many men died in that war. So many sacri\ufb01ces were made. As soon as the war was over, the big companies moved in. The corruption was unbelievable. The lobbyists literally bought Congressmen. A positive vote in the House of Representatives cost $100. A Senator\u2019s vote cost $500. That\u2019s how visible the nafs was. Despair over that drove Mark Twain nuts. What we have now is a repetition of the situation after the Civil War, but on an international scale.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

O\u2019CONNOR RODRIGUEZ<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Just add zeros to those numbers.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

BLY<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Exactly. [Reads from \u201cThe Stew of Discontents\u201d]<\/p>\n\n\n\n

What will you say of our recent adventure?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Some element, Dresdenized,<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

coated with Somme<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Mud and \ufb02esh, entered, and all prayer was vain.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

The Anglo-Saxon poets hear the whistle of the wild<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Gander as it glides to the madman\u2019s hand.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Spent uranium \ufb02oats into children\u2019s lungs.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

All for the sake of whom? For him or her<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Or it, the greedy one, the rapacious soul.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

O\u2019CONNOR RODRIGUEZ<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

There it is again. That same phrase at the end just like the poem before.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

BLY<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

A few years ago I published a book of poems called Meditations on the Insatiable Soul<\/em>. My father was dying at that time. I visited him and in two poems I describe my own rapacious soul. I called it then the insatiable soul, but I decided later that the phrase was too pretty\u2014Meditations on the Insatiable Soul.<\/em> The reality is not pretty. The word \u201cgreedy\u201d is better. Anyway, the concept of the nafs is the main thing I\u2019ve learned in the last ten years. The danger of giving poetry readings is that many people\u2014as they did last night\u2014stand up and clap. The greedy soul loves that. It\u2019s great. And if it feels like it, the greedy soul will betray God, your children. You understand? Betray your wife. Betray your parents. It betrays anyone for the \ufb02utter of an eyelash.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

MCCANDLESS<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Is there a way to get away from the greedy soul?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

BLY<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

The consciousness that there is such a thing helps. That awareness is what the greedy soul doesn\u2019t want. You see? There are many references in the New Testament to the nafs. Jesus says, \u201cWhen you pray, don\u2019t pray in public.\u201d Go into your closet and pray. If you pray in public, the greedy soul will eat the prayer. The Muslim holy books tell a story very like that: a community leader was so faithful as to prayer sessions, he always stood up praying in the front, and everyone thought that was so wonderful. He had done that for years. One day he came in late and had to stand in back. At that moment his nafs was irritated and complained to him. After that he never prayed in public again.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

O\u2019CONNOR RODRIGUEZ<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Do you think the nafs is everyone\u2019s primary motivation?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

BLY<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Ninety-nine percent of the time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

O\u2019CONNOR RODRIGUEZ<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Has that changed, do you think, over the years in America? I hate to be too focused on our country, but\u2014<\/p>\n\n\n\n

BLY<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

I think we are witnessing capitalism substituting itself for democracy. Democracy was always a touchy thing for the nafs because it o\ufb00ers something to black people, o\ufb00ers money to poor people. \u201cWell, what do you mean you\u2019re giving money to them!\u201d When capitalism speaks, it says, \u201cEverything is for the nafs. Period. We don\u2019t care about the poor people in the world. We don\u2019t care about anything but us.\u201d Your nafs might advise you to give to the tsunami relief, because you might get a little \ufb02utter of the eyelash there. But you noticed how much was promised and how little delivered. The nafs says, \u201cNo, we\u2019ll keep it for ourselves.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n

O\u2019CONNOR RODRIGUEZ<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

The presidents on TV, they want some eyelid \ufb02utter, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

BLY<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Yes. Exactly. Being democratic would never do it for them now. Do you have my Abraham<\/em> book here? Oh, here\u2019s a good one. [Reads from \u201cNoah Watching the Rain.\u201d]<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I never understood that abundance leads to war.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Nor that manyness is gasoline on the \ufb01re.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

I never knew that the horseshoe longs for night.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

In another poem I use the word \u201cfaithful\u201d: [Reads from \u201cThe Storyteller\u2019s Way.\u201d]<\/p>\n\n\n\n

It\u2019s because the storytellers have been so faithful<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

That all these tales of in\ufb01delity come to light.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

It\u2019s the job of the faithful to evoke the unfaithful.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Our task is to eat sand, our task is to be sad\u2014<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Being sad is your task if you are \ufb01ghting the nafs.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Our task is to eat sand, our task is to be sad,<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Our task is to cook ashes, our task is to die.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

The grasshopper\u2019s way is the way of the faithful.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

O\u2019CONNOR RODRIGUEZ<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

You also said \u201cour task is to be sad\u201d last night, when you were talking about grief.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

BLY<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Several people noticed that. I did say that, yes, but the poem also says the reason I am not bitter is because I keep holding the grief pipe between my teeth. A friend says, \u201cEveryone I know is trying to keep themselves from feeling grief.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n

O\u2019CONNOR RODRIGUEZ<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

General grief? Personal grief? Both?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

BLY<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

We were down looking at the river in Spokane. It\u2019s polluted. The Russians come\u2014there are, what, thousands of Russians in town, now\u2014they \ufb01sh there. They eat it. They\u2019re not willing to accept the grief that we\u2019ve polluted that damn river and the \ufb01sh are inedible. That\u2019s a kind of a grief we have to accept. More and more, we have to accept the grief not only about our history as a race of human beings, but also the grief of our race as Americans. And then at home you know, you see a little child and you are actually looking at a king of the nafs. \u201cI want this! I want that!\u201d You can\u2019t do anything about it exactly, except to remember that you were like that when you were small and to feel a little grief for that. I think grief is the most valuable emotion we can have right now.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

MCCANDLESS<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

You mentioned at the end of The Insanity of Empire<\/em> that we have to process the grief, and if we don\u2019t, we will be blind to our truth. You quoted Mart\u00edn Prechtel\u2014<\/p>\n\n\n\n

BLY<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

He has a brilliant mind. We\u2019ve been good friends. Maybe twenty years ago, a person from Santa Fe said to me: \u201cThere\u2019s a strange man living in a teepee two miles out of town.\u201d And I said, \u201cLet\u2019s go.\u201d So we went, and there was Mart\u00edn, just come from Guatemala, with his wife and two small sons. Later, I invited Mart\u00edn to join a group of teachers at a men\u2019s week in California. The teachers all got together and asked Mart\u00edn what he would do with the men. Mart\u00edn said, \u201cWell, I think I would take the guys out into the woods and get them lost. They wouldn\u2019t have any food for seventy-two hours.\u201d Everyone\u2019s eyes got big because they had been thinking about one hour sessions. Mart\u00edn was talking about serious stu\ufb00\u2014getting them lost in the woods! Alone for seventy-two hours! He is a great teacher and writer.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

O\u2019CONNOR RODRIGUEZ<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

I heard he recently started a school.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

BLY<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

He\u2019s always wanted a school. And he \ufb01nally got it. And he loves to teach. He\u2019s found an old Native American church building down there and every three months people come and spend maybe ten days to two weeks and he teaches them. He likes to start with Mongolia. There hasn\u2019t been any teacher like Mart\u00edn in this country for a long time. I\u2019ll quote you one phrase of his. [Reads from The Insanity of Empire<\/em>.] \u201cMany observers have noticed that even though the United States and Canada have many resemblances, we have so many more murders per capita than Canada does. Why is that? Perhaps it\u2019s because we kept slaves and later fought a vicious civil war to free or keep them. We know from Vietnam that the violence men witness or perform remains trapped in their bodies. Mart\u00edn Prechtel has called that su\ufb00ering \u2018unmetabolized grief.\u2019 To metabolize such grief would mean bringing the body slowly and gradually to absorb the grief into its own system, as it might some sort of poison.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n

But this is like the people in the Civil War who did all that killing and the nafs approved of it. Very much. And then what did we do with them? We sent them away to kill the Indians. No one said to these soldiers at that time: \u201cYou\u2019ve been in war, you\u2019ve got to have three years of treatment before we let you look at one Native American.\u201d [pauses, reads again] \u201cOnce the Civil War was over, soldiers on both sides simply took o\ufb00 their uniforms. Some went west and became the Indian \ufb01ghters. We have the stupidity typical of a country that doesn\u2019t realize what the killing in war can do to a human being.\u201d That\u2019s the same thing the President doesn\u2019t understand today. [resumes reading] \u201cWhen the violent grief is unmetabolized, it demands to be repeated. One could say that we now have a compulsion to repeat the killing.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n

O\u2019CONNOR RODRIGUEZ<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

So what do soldiers do now?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

BLY<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

You come home and beat up your wife, that\u2019s the \ufb01rst thing you do. Then you start at your children. You cause an immense amount of damage. Unmetabolized grief is like an unmetabolized poison. Well, that\u2019s a new idea. Psychologists have to take that in.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

MCCANDLESS<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Did we not have any kind of treatment in previous wars, like in World War II?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

BLY<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

No. The ones who got treatment were the ones who had their legs blown o\ufb00 and stu\ufb00. And they\u2019d be in the hospital. Otherwise, we\u2019d turn them right back into the main culture. That\u2019s hard to believe, but we did.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Researchers have identi\ufb01ed a part of the brain called the amygdala.\u00a0Apparently, horrible events get stored there. We know that for centuries people lived in groups of \ufb01fty or seventy-\ufb01ve. You might wake up at 4:00 in the morning and realize that strangers have come and killed twenty of your people. The dead are all lying around. Human beings cannot thrive then. It\u2019s too much. The speculation is that the memories of what you just saw, all those dead people, your relatives and friends, are stored in the amygdala. Within two days everyone is back to normal and thinking, \u201cI don\u2019t really remember what happened.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n

We could say that Civil War soldiers stored violence they had done and seen in the amygdala. Then when they went West, and fought Indians, it came out of the amygdala.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

O\u2019CONNOR RODRIGUEZ<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Is there anything to be hopeful for?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

BLY<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

I don\u2019t know, that\u2019s your<\/em> problem. [everyone laughs] But I have a friend out here who works a lot helping farmers. He also built up this section of Spokane, about \ufb01ve years ago. And now he does all kinds of things, but he says that he has a hopeful place in him that he always keeps and he won\u2019t allow it to be disturbed. At the same time, to be able to feel all the grief. Not to have it\u2014the whole mind stuns, you don\u2019t feel anything, it\u2019s not that. You feel the grief that you have, and then you make sure that you have hopeful places. And that\u2019s one thing that poetry does. If you get through a poem, I don\u2019t care how much grief there is in a poem, at the end you\u2019ll feel some hope. And that\u2019s what poetry is. It\u2019s a form of dance. And oftentimes\u2014because you start dancing in a poem, I mean the vowels dance and the rhythm dances\u2014by the end, your body receives an infusion of hope. More than it does from prose.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

MCCANDLESS<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Why\u2019s that?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

BLY<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Because it\u2019s a compressed form, so in order to make it lively, it has to have dance. The di\ufb00erence between poetry and prose, I think, is that in poetry, there are old, old ways of dancing with the vowels, consonants. And if you can\u2019t dance, you can\u2019t write poetry. Every time one reads Rilke, we see that he talks about the most serious things, but there\u2019s always a feeling of great delight at the end. He\u2019s a genius. So\u2019s Kabir. We should put one of his poems in here.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

O\u2019CONNOR RODRIGUEZ<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Did you translate his book?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

BLY<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Yes. [Reads from \u201cThe Great Communion of Being\u201d by Kabir.]<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Inside this clay jug there are canyons and pine mountains<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

and the maker of canyons<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

and pine mountains!<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

All seven oceans are inside, and hundreds of millions of stars.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

The acid that tests gold is there, and the one who judges jewels.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

And the music from the strings no one touches, and the source of all water.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

If you want the truth, I will tell you the truth:<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Friend, listen: the God whom I love is inside.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Whew! That should be enough, huh? [Reads from \u201cThe Meeting\u201d by Kabir.]<\/p>\n\n\n\n

When my friend is away from me, I am depressed;<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

nothing in the daylight delights me,<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

sleep at night gives no rest,<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

who can I tell about this?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

The night is dark, and long hours go by<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

because I am alone, I sit up suddenly,<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

fear goes through me<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kabir says: Listen, my friend,<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

there is one thing in the world that satis\ufb01es,<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

and that is a meeting with the Guest.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

So, you can say that this exhilaration is the very opposite of the mood around the nafs. Kabir says that inside you there is an energy which is never cruel and always luminous. That\u2019s the source of hope, and that\u2019s why a saint will go out in the desert and spend twenty years, because sooner or later, that Guest will come along.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

O\u2019CONNOR RODRIGUEZ<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

What did you say at the reading, about \u201cThe poet who really writes, standing there after you die?\u201d I believe the poet\u2019s last name was Jim\u00e9nez\u2014<\/p>\n\n\n\n

BLY<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Oh, yes. \u201cI am not I.\u201d That\u2019s right. That\u2019s the mood. [Quotes \u201cI am not I\u201d by Juan Ram\u00f3n Jim\u00e9nez]<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I am not I. I am this one<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Walking beside me whom I do not see,<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Whom at times I manage to visit,<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

And at other times I forget.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

The one who remains silent when I talk,<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

The one who forgives, sweet, when I hate,<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

The one who takes a walk when I am indoors,<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

The one who will remain standing when I die.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

It\u2019s a great poem. He puts all he knows of \u201cThe Visitor\u201d in one poem. \u201cThe one who remains silent while I talk.\u201d So, as long as we talk so much, we can\u2019t feel \u201cThe Visitor\u201d to be present. \u201cThe Visitor\u201d is the one who \u201cforgives, sweet, when I hate.\u201d The one \u201cwho takes a walk when I am indoors.\u201d He\u2019s pointing out the association of that secret one with nature. \u201cThe one who takes a walk when I am indoors. The one who will remain standing when I die.\u201d I love this poem.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

MCCANDLESS<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Yesterday, you said something about the transparency of nature. Can you talk about that a little?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

BLY<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Maybe I could read you \u201cWatering the Horse.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n

How strange to think of giving up all ambition.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Suddenly I see with such clear eyes<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

The white \ufb02ake of snow<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

That has just fallen in the horse\u2019s mane!<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

There is something here that reminds us of some old Chinese poets. Once they had given up the idea of joining the Chinese Social Service, they\u2019d drop out of ordinary life and become hobos. That was an aim of the sixties, too. Gary Snyder, for example, did that deliberately, knowing well that whole Chinese background. The idea is: \u201cI\u2019m not going to be a part of this. I\u2019m just going to go out and build a little shack instead.\u201d Then a strange thing sometimes happened: you would be able to see things in nature much more clearly. It was as if nature became transparent.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

O\u2019CONNOR RODRIGUEZ<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Did it actually work that way?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

BLY<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Yes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

O\u2019CONNOR RODRIGUEZ<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Your poems that EWU Press <\/em>just published: were these written in that Chinese mode, too?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

BLY<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Exactly. I wrote them in the late \ufb01fties and early sixties. It happened that I didn\u2019t publish them at the time. So I went back one day and found them. I love that kind of poem. They aim somehow to catch the transparency of nature.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

O\u2019CONNOR RODRIGUEZ<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

What do you mean by \u201cthe transparency?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n

BLY<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Okay. [Reads from \u201cAfter Working\u201d]<\/p>\n\n\n\n

After many strange thoughts,<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Thoughts of distant harbors, and new life,<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

I came in and found the moonlight lying in the room.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Outside it covers the trees like pure sound,<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

The sound of tower bells, or of water moving under the ice,<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

The sound of the deaf hearing through the bones of their heads.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

We know the road; as the moonlight<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Lifts everything, so in a night like this<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

The road goes on ahead, it is all clear.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

The transparency suggests that we know the road. You long for something? You can do it. We know the road. I like that. You almost never feel that certainty in the city, but you feel it out in the country. I\u2019m a very coarse person in many ways. You can see all these greedinesses in me and my passions. And my body is heavy. And yet, because I try to hold on to that transparency, my body has to put up with it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

One time, St. Francis and his friends were coming back from Rome, and they didn\u2019t have much money. They walked and walked, and it was cold and raining. Finally they got to the house of friends. They knocked on the door, \u201cLet us in!\u201d \u201cWhat are you robbers doing down there?\u201d And someone threw hot water on them. \u201cNo, it\u2019s Francis. It\u2019s Francis and his friends! Let us in!\u201d \u201cGo away you robbers!\u201d They dropped stones on them and trash. \u201cCome on, let us in! It\u2019s Francis!\u201d And the people keep throwing stu\ufb00 on them. And the people with Francis say, \u201cThis is terrible!\u201d \u201cNo,\u201d Francis said, \u201cThis is perfect joy.\u201d You understand? Because all of that was good for defeating their nafs. They think they\u2019re really something and these guys are throwing stu\ufb00 on them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

O\u2019CONNOR RODRIGUEZ<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Sometimes when you read, you come back to a poem that maybe you haven\u2019t read in a while, and you seem genuinely surprised by something you said?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

BLY<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Maybe it\u2019s good I have a bad memory. I was surprised last night when the man who introduced me asked me to read \u201cThe Hockey Poem.\u201d \u201cThe Hockey Poem\u201d isn\u2019t transparent at all, it\u2019s just funny. It\u2019s about greed of various kinds. But I was surprised at how many jokes there were in it. I enjoyed that. And here is a nafs sentence about the goalie: [Reads from \u201cThe Hockey Poem.\u201d]<\/p>\n\n\n\n

This goalie with his mask is a woman weeping over the child<\/em>ren<\/p>\n\n\n\n

of men, who are cut down like grass, gulls standing with cold<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

feet on ice. And at the end, she is still waiting, brushing away<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

the leaves, waiting for the new children, developed by speed,<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

by war\u2026.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

O\u2019CONNOR RODRIGUEZ<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

What about madness\u2014that\u2019s something from the reading. You said we have to double the madness. You were talking about television and children\u2014<\/p>\n\n\n\n

BLY<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

The insanity of television is really ugly insanity. It\u2019s shameless nafs insanity. We have children, and we let the television teach them? That\u2019s insane. As a parent, it\u2019s important to develop the insanity of art, which is a positive insanity, to meet that negative insanity. Because we had many kinds of art in the house, the positive insanity of art, the children were not quite as caught up with the other stu\ufb00. What I\u2019m trying to say here is that parents have a new responsibility now. We used to be able to trust what was coming in. You can\u2019t trust it anymore.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

MCCANDLESS<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Do you think kids are turning away from books?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

BLY<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Yes, of course. The \ufb01gures of the percentage of children who read dropped from 60% in the last decade down to 50%, and now it\u2019s down to 42%. And that\u2019s in only about \ufb01ve or ten years. [pauses] Do you read to your children?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

MCCANDLESS<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

I read to them every night.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

BLY<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

That\u2019s because you\u2019re intelligent. Kids know there\u2019s fun in that. My kids did, too. But we\u2019re talking about developing \u201cthrow-aways.\u201d We\u2019re developing a culture that accepts the idea that three-quarters of children will be throw-aways, only good for buying cars and houses. And we\u2019re not going to educate them, and we\u2019re not going to tell them about God. We\u2019re going to use them as throw-aways, to buy the things people manufacture. That\u2019s ugly.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

MCCANDLESS<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

The ultimate nafs civilization, isn\u2019t it?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

BLY<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Yes, it is. This nafs-life is not what the United States was created for. So, we\u2019re in some kind of trance in which we see these hideous things happening to our children and we don\u2019t do anything about it. The nafs in television has a big hold on adults too.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

MCCANDLESS<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Is that a recent development, or was it apparent in other media before television?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

BLY<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

You had to go out to see movies. Now, it\u2019s right in the house. It\u2019s sort of like having whores in the living room. Why not make the kitchen into a whorehouse\u2014how would that be? We used to leave the house to see something really shoddy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I don\u2019t understand how we\u2019re going to solve this, because we\u2019ve trained human beings to be passive. Don\u2019t walk, drive a car. Don\u2019t make your food, buy it. That works for capitalism. Most Senators and Representatives have been bought by the corporations.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

O\u2019CONNOR RODRIGUEZ<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Then why even keep a place of hope?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

BLY<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Hope is what combats it. If you have hope, you pick up the book, turn o\ufb00 the TV. You\u2019ve got to have hope for your children. Because that\u2019s what it\u2019s for. It\u2019s feeding, you\u2019ve got to feed them that hope. And that\u2019s a divine thing that parents do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

MCCANDLESS<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

And cry when they don\u2019t. Is it a primal thing in everyone, that has always been, or do we traditionally have a \u201ccounter-nafs?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n

BLY<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Joe Campbell told a story about that. He was living in Hawaii, and one day policemen saw a man who was about to jump over a cli\ufb00. The two policemen got out of their car. One policeman stepped over\u2014it was very risky\u2014and when the man jumped, he reached and caught him. And Joe said, \u201cHe risked his life to save the life of that other man. That\u2019s what culture is.\u201d The willingness to die for another is the opposite of the nafs.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

O\u2019CONNOR RODRIGUEZ<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

You said at the reading that as you become more interested in culture, America moves away from it\u2014<\/p>\n\n\n\n

BLY<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

That \ufb01ts along with the way we are becoming a nafs culture. If you really took on the obligation to help every human being in the serious way a Catholic nun takes her vow, you would be much more resistant to the wholesale lowering of human standards through television and buying presidents. I think it is built into the human being\u2014this anti-nafs willingness to sacri\ufb01ce oneself for another human being. Women do that whenever they give birth. I think that\u2019s one reason men are more nafsish\u2014women sacri\ufb01ce every time they have a child. The nafs culture doesn\u2019t support good motherhood.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

MCCANDLESS<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Do you think we\u2019re exporting that to other countries?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

BLY<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

I do, and that\u2019s horrifying. Norway and Sweden, for instance, resist our ways. Sweden has wonderful laws for the protection of pregnant women, whether they\u2019re married or not. They put a lot of money into that. Of course, here that would be knocked down by Tom DeLay. It\u2019s interesting to think that since The United States has become the world leader in encouraging nafsish behavior and sel\ufb01shness in all forms, we can\u2019t expect a culture of serious book reading to continue, because it\u2019s hard work. Students now are primarily visual; people graduate high school and college and they don\u2019t read. Something in\ufb01nitely important is being lost. Reading requires great e\ufb00ort. Observers tell the story of a grown man, an illiterate who decided to learn to read. It turned out he had to put blanket over himself eventually when he was reading because his body temperature actually fell two degrees from the e\ufb00ort. In the West, children start early, so we don\u2019t recognize it, but it shows how much energy is required to take these little squiggles and turn them into thoughts and ideas. Reading requires a lot from the body. When kids don\u2019t read, they\u2019re losing something in\ufb01nitely important. It isn\u2019t only that we\u2019ve become visual. We\u2019re losing what we\u2019ve spent a thousand years, two thousand years learning how to do.<\/p>\n\n

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According to psychologist Robert Moore, \u201cWhen the cultural and intellectual history of our time is written, Robert Bly will be recognized as the catalyst for a sweeping cultural revolution.\u201d As a groundbreaking poet, editor, translator, storyteller, and father of what he has called \u201cthe expressive men\u2019s movement,\u201d Bly remains one of the signi\ufb01cant American artists … Read more<\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":9086,"featured_media":2511,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"wpo365_audiences":[],"wpo365_private":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[7],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-36117","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-interviews"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/inside.ewu.edu\/willowspringsmagazine\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/36117"}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/inside.ewu.edu\/willowspringsmagazine\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/inside.ewu.edu\/willowspringsmagazine\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/inside.ewu.edu\/willowspringsmagazine\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/9086"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/inside.ewu.edu\/willowspringsmagazine\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=36117"}],"version-history":[{"count":4,"href":"https:\/\/inside.ewu.edu\/willowspringsmagazine\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/36117\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":36714,"href":"https:\/\/inside.ewu.edu\/willowspringsmagazine\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/36117\/revisions\/36714"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/inside.ewu.edu\/willowspringsmagazine\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/2511"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/inside.ewu.edu\/willowspringsmagazine\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=36117"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/inside.ewu.edu\/willowspringsmagazine\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=36117"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/inside.ewu.edu\/willowspringsmagazine\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=36117"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}